During the press conference on the flight from Malmö to Rome, Francis said “there is a political price to pay when imprudent calculations are made” regarding the numbers a country is able to host, resulting in it being unable to offer housing, schooling and jobs. The Pope also praised oratories and volunteers in Italy, that were born “from the apostolic zeal of parish priests” and he once again rejected the possibility of female priests in the Catholic Church.
“It is inhumane to shut our doors and hearts to regugees,” but prudence is also needed in order to welcome those who really can be integrated, giving them a home and a job. Pope Francis said this in his interview with journalists on the flight from Malmö to Rome. “I would like to greet and thank you for the work you have done out in the cold,” Francis started off by saying. “But we left in time, they say the temperature’s dropping five degrees this evening”.
More and more people are seeking refuge in European countries but this is causing fear. Some say refugees could threaten Europe’s identity and Christianity. Even Sweden is starting to close its borders…
“As an Argentinian and a South American, I am very grateful to Sweden for this hospitality, because the country took in so many Argentinians, Chileans and Uruguayans during military dictatorships. It ahs a long tradition of hospitality, not just in terms of receiving but also in terms of integration and helping people to find a home, school and a job immediately. Integrating them into a society. I may be wrong, I’m not sure, but Sweden has a population of 9 million, out of which 850,000 are apparently “new Swedes”, in other words migrants or refugees. Or their children. A distinction needs to be made between migrants and refugees. Migrants must be treated according to certain regulations because migration is a right but it is highly regulated. Refugees, meanwhile, come from contexts marked by despair, hunger and terrible war and their status needs to be assessed more carefully and requires more work. Here too, Sweden has always set the example when it comes to settling people, teaching them the language and integrating them into the local culture. As far as cultural integration is concerned, we needn’t be scared: Europe was created through the continuous integration of cultures. What do I think about countries that shut their borders? I believe that, in theory, one cannot shut their heart to a refugee. However, political leaders need to be prudent, they should be very open to receiving them but they also need to be prudent when it comes to working out how to settle them because it is not just about receiving a refugee, they also need to be integrated. If a country is able to integrate, then they should do what they can. If another country has a greater capacity, they should do more, always keeping an open heart. It is inhumane to shut our doors, it is inhumane to shut our hearts and in the long run there is a price to pay, a political price. There is also a political price to pay when imprudent calculations are made and a country takes in more than it can integrate. What is the risk when a migrant o a refugee are not integrated? They become ghettoised! They form ghettoes and a culture that does not develop in tandem with the another culture. This is dangerous. I think fear is the worst counsellor for countries who tend to close their borders. And the best counsellor is prudence. I spoke to an official of the Swedish government and he was telling me about some difficulties caused by the large number of arrivals which means there is not enough time to settle everyone and find schools, homes and jobs. Prudence needs to take all this into account. I believe that if Sweden lowers its capacity, it isn’t out of selfishness, if this is happening it is for the reason I have just mentioned… they aim for Sweden but there isn’t enough time to settle everyone.”
Sweden’s Church is led by a woman. Is it realistic to think of the Catholic Church having female priests?
“Having read a bit about the history of the area we visited, I saw that there was a queen who was widowed three times and I said to myself: this woman is strong. I was told that Swedish women are very strong and very capable…Regarding female ordinations: John Paul II had the final word on this subject, his word was clear and it still applies. But there are so many things women do better than men. Catholic ecclesiology has two dimensions. The Petrine dimension, the dimension of the apostles, Peter, the college and the bishops and it has the Marian dimension which is the Church’s female dimension. Who is more important in the theology and the mystique of the Church? The apostles or Mary? Mary is, the Church is a woman. The Church marries Jesus Christ. It is a spousal mystery and in light of this mystery we understand the purpose of these two dimensions. The Church cannot exist without this female dimension.”
So there will never be any female priests?
“If you read over St. John Paul II’s declaration carefully, that is the gist”.
Before Pentecost in 2017, an event is going to be held at the Circus Maximus to mark the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. What are you hoping for?
“I visited the Evangelicals in Caserta and the Waldensians in Turin: these are initiatives of forgiveness that aim to make amends because Catholics, a section of the Catholic Church did not treat them in a very Christian way. An apology needed to be made and wounds needed to be healed. The other initiative is dialogue. In Buenos Aires, we held three meetings with Evangelicals and Catholics at the stadium, aimed at charismatic renewal but an open one. During these meetings, which occupied a full day, there was an Evangelical bishop and a Catholic bishop preaching. Fr. Cantalamessa preached at two of these gatherings. We also held two three-day spiritual retreats with pastors and Catholic priests together. This really boosted dialogue, understanding, convergence and the work being done for the most needy. In Rome, I have already held meetings with some pastors. There is a celebration for the 50th anniversary of the charismatic renewal - which was born ecumenical - being organised. God willing I will go there to speak at the Circus Maximus. When the charismatic renewal came into being, one of its staunchest opponents was your truly, who was Jesuit provincial at the time: I forbid Jesuits to get involved and whenever there was a liturgical celebration it had to be a celebration, not a samba class. Now I believe the opposite and every year in Buenos Aires I would celebrate mass for the charismatics. There was a gradual recognition of the good this renewal did under Cardinal Suenens…”
You recently received Venezuela’s President Nicolas Maduro. What were your impressions following the meeting and what do you think about the start of a dialogue?
“Venezuela’s president asked for a meeting because he was coming from the Middle East and had to make a technical stop in Rome. When a president asks, you receive him. I listened to him for half an hour, I asked him a question or two and heard his opinion. It is always good to listen to everyone’s opinion. About dialogue: it is the only path in any conflict, you either engage in dialogue or you shout. I wholeheartedly give dialogue my all, I believe this is the path to follow, I don’t know what the outcome will be… it’s complicated, but those taking part in the dialogue are important political figures… There’s Zapatero, Spain’s former prime minister. Both sides have asked the Holy See to be present. The Holy See has appointed the Nuncio to Argentina. The only way to overcome conflict is by engaging in a dialogue that favours negotiation. Had this route been taken in the Middle East, how many lives could have been spared.”
Secularisation is very strong in Sweden. This phenomenon is witnessed throughout Europe. It is estimated that the majority of French citizens do not belong to any religion. Is secularisation an inevitability? Whose responsibility is this? Are lay leaders or a timid Church responsible for this?
“Not inevitable, I don’t believe in inevitability. As to who is responsible, I wouldn’t know. It’s a process. Benedict XVI talked a great deal about this and he did so very clearly. When faith becomes lukewarm it is because the Church weakens. The times when secularisation is strongest – think of France for example – are when there is worldliness, when priests were lackeys of the court , there was a clerical functionalism, the power of the Gospel was lacking. When there is secularisation it means evangelisation is weak. But there is another process underway, when man receives the world from God to turn it into culture, to make it grow. But a time comes when man begins to feel he is master of that culture, to the point that he becomes the creator of another culture that is his own, taking the place of God the creator. In a secularised context, I believe that sooner or later one commits sin against God the creator, man becomes self-sufficient. It is not a problem of secularism, we need a healthy secularism , a healthy independence of the sciences, of thought and of politics. But the secularism the Enlightenment left us with is different… Those who go too far and see themselves as God, evangelisation is weakened in some way, Christians become lukewarm. A renewed healthy independence in the development of culture and science is needed, but this needs to be regained as individuals created by God, not feeling ourselves to be God. Cardinal De Lubac said that when such a worldliness enters the Church, it is even worse than what happened in the days of the corrupt Popes. When Jesus prays for us at the Last Supper, he asks one thing of the Father: not to remove us from the world but to defend us from the world, from worldliness, which is incredibly dangerous: a secularisation that is a bit dressed-up, a bit disguised a bit prêt-à-porter.”
A day or so ago you met with the Santa Marta Group, which works to prevent modern day slavery and human trafficking. Why? Did you have any related experiences in Argentina?
“As a priest I have always been concerned about the flesh of Christ, the fact that Christ continues to suffer, that Christ is constantly being crucified in the person of his weaker brothers and sisters. This has always been something that has moved me. As a priest I worked on small projects, with the poor, but not only, I also worked with university students. Then, as Bishop of Buenos Aires we launched some initiatives to counter slave labour, working also with non-Catholic groups and non believers. Migrants arrive, they have their passports taken from them and they are forced into slave labour. I worked with two congregations of nuns who deal with prostitutes, women who have become slaves of prostitution (I don’t like the word “prostitute”, slaves of prostitution). Once a year we would celebrate mass for these women… We worked together and here in Italy there are many volunteer groups that work against all forms of slavery. A few months ago I visited one of these organisations. They are doing a good job, I didn’t expect this. This is a truly great thing Italy has, volunteering. And this is thanks to parish priests: the oratory and volunteering came about as a result of the apostolic zeal of parish priests.”
