In an interview with Spanish daily El País, the Pope spoke about populism and mentioned the example of Germany in 1933: “The risk in times of crisis is that we look for a saviour who gives us back our identity and lets defend ourselves with walls”.
No word of caution, no abstract positive or negative opinions on Donald Trump. Just a reminder about the importance of being realistic and concrete, the kind of approach every Christian should have: let’s see what he does. In a lengthy interview with Spanish daily newspaper El País on new President of the United States, published on Sunday 22 January, Pope Francis echoed what the Vatican Secretary of State, Pietro Parolin, had said the day after the presidential election. Francis was interviewed by Pablo Ordaz and Antonio Caño at St. Martha’s House on 20 January, just as Trump was about to become the 45th president of the United States, swearing an oath upon the Bible. Francis spoke at length about populism, migrants, Church reforms and a possible visit to China and also answered a question on the future of the conclave.
Being realistic about Trump
“We will see how he acts, what he does, and then I will have an opinion. But being afraid or rejoicing beforehand because of something that might happen is, in my view, quite unwise. It would be like prophets predicting calamities or windfalls that will not be either. We will see. We will see what he does and will judge. Always on the specific. Christianity, either is specific or it is not Christianity. We need specifics. And from the specific we can draw consequences. We lose sense of the concrete. The other day, a thinker was telling me that this world is so upside down that it needs a fixed point. And those fixed points stem from the concrete. What did you do, what did you decide, how do you move. That is why I prefer to wait and see.”
Populism and Germany in 1933
The question put to the Pope was this: “Both in Europe and in America, the repercussions of the crisis that never ends, the growing inequalities, the absence of strong leadership are giving way to political groups that reflect on the citizens' malaise. Some of them —the so-called anti-system or populists— capitalize on the fears in face of an uncertain future in order to form a message full of xenophobia and hatred towards the foreigner…” The Pope’s response was this: “Crises provoke fear, alarm. In my opinion, the most obvious example of European populism is Germany in 1933. After [Paul von] Hindenburg, after the crisis of 1930, Germany is broken, it needs to get up, to find its identity, a leader, someone capable of restoring its character, and there is a young man named Adolf Hitler who says: "I can, I can". And all Germans vote for Hitler. Hitler didn't steal the power, his people voted for him, and then he destroyed his people. That is the risk. In times of crisis, we lack judgment, and that is a constant reference for me. Let's look for a saviour who gives us back our identity and lets defend ourselves with walls, barbed-wire, whatever, from other peoples that may rob us of our identity. And that is a very serious thing. That is why I always try to say: talk among yourselves, talk to one another. But the case of Germany in 1933 is typical, a people that was immersed in a crisis, that looked for its identity until this charismatic leader came and promised to give their identity back, and he gave them a distorted identity, and we all know what happened. Where there is no conversation... Can borders be controlled? Yes, each country has the right to control its borders, who comes and who goes, and those countries at risk —from terrorism or such things— have even more the right to control them more, but no country has the right to deprive its citizens of the possibility to talk with their neighbours.”
The Church and the responses to the influx of immigrants
“I think that, fortunately, the responses are generally good. Very good. When I asked the parishes and the schools in Rome to take in immigrants, many said that it had been a failure. It is not true! It was not a failure at all! A high percentage of Rome's parishes, when they didn't have a big house or they had a very little one, they had their parishioners rent an apartment for an immigrant family. In convent schools, whenever there was room, they welcomed an immigrant family... The answer is that we have done more than you know, we haven't advertised it. The Vatican has two parishes and each parish has an immigrant family. An apartment at the Vatican for one family, another for the other one. The response has been constant. Not a 100%. I don't know the proportion. I think maybe 50%. Then there is the problem of integration. Each immigrant constitutes a very serious problem. They are fleeing their country, because of hunger or because of the war. And the solution must be there. They are exploited. Take Africa: Africa is the symbol of exploitation. Even when giving their independence, in some countries, they are independent and the owners of their land on the surface, but not underground. So they are always used and abused. The reception policy has several phases. There is an emergency reception: you have to welcome them, because otherwise they drown. Italy and Greece have led by example. Even now, Italy, with all the problems caused by the earthquake and all that, still cares for them. They welcome them.”
“I am not making any revolution”
“I try — I don't know if I’ll succeed — to do what the Gospel says. I am a sinner and not always successful, but that is what I try to do. The history of the Church has not been driven by theologians, or priests, or nuns, or bishops... Maybe in part, but the true heroes of the Church are the saints. That is, those men and women that devoted their lives to make the Gospel a reality. Those are the ones that have saved us: the saints. We sometimes think that a saint is a nun that looks up to the heaven and rolls her eyes. The saints are the specific examples of the Gospel in daily life! And the theology that you learn from a saint's life is immense. There is no doubt that the theologians and the pastors are necessary. They are part of the Church. But we must come back to that: the Gospel. And who are the best messengers of the Gospel? The saints. You used the word "revolution". That is a revolution! I am not a saint. I am not making any revolution. I am just trying to push the Gospel forward. In an imperfect way, because I make my blunders from time to time.”
“I do not feel unrecognised”
“I think that I should be more unrecognized because of my sins. Paul VI was the unappreciated martyr. (...) Evangelii Gadium, which frames the pastoral principles that I want for the Church, is an update of Paul VI's Evangelii Nuntiandi. He is a man who was ahead of history. And he suffered a lot. He was a martyr. There were many things that he wasn't able to do, he was a realistic person and he knew that he wasn't able and he suffered for it, but he offered his suffering. He did what he could. And the best thing that he did was planting the seeds. The seeds of things that history collected afterwards. Evangelii Gadium is a mix of Evangelii Nuntiandi and the Aparecida document. Things that developed from the bottom. Evangelii Nuntiandi is the best pastoral paper after the Council, and it still is current. I don't feel unrecognized. I feel accompanied by all kinds of people, young people, old people... There are some who don't agree, of course, and they have the right, because, if I felt bad because someone disagrees with me, I would have the germ of a dictator in me. They have the right to disagree. They have the right to think that the path is dangerous, that the outcome may be bad, they have the right. But provided they talk, that they don't hide behind others. Nobody has the right to do that. Hiding behind others is inhumane, it is a crime. Everyone has the right to debate, and I wish we all would debate more, because it creates a smoother connection between us. Debating unites us. A debate in good faith, not with slander nor things like that.”
“I’ll go to China as soon as they invite me”
“There is a committee that has been working for years with China, they meet every three months, once here and once in Beijing. There are many talks with China. China has always that aura of mystery that is fascinating. Two or three months ago they had the exhibition of pieces from the Vatican Museums in Beijing, and they were very happy about it. And next year they will come to the Vatican with their exhibits.” As far as a visit to China is concerned, the Pope said he will go “as soon as they invite me. They know that. Besides, in China, churches are crowded. In China they can worship freely.”
Liberation Theology
“Liberation Theology was very positive for Latin America. The Vatican condemned the part that adopted the Marxist analysis of reality. Cardinal Ratzinger conducted two inquiries when he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. One, very clear, about the Marxist analysis of reality. And a second one that recovered some positive aspects. Liberation Theology had positive aspects and also deviations, mainly in the part of the Marxist analysis of reality.”
The Pope feels “used” by some Argentinians
“Some say: We are having our picture taken, just as a souvenir, and I promise it will be for my personal use, I will not publish it. And before getting out the door it is already published. Well, if that makes him happy, that is their problem. Their quality as a person diminishes. The user is a small person. What can I do. It's their problem, not mine. There are many Argentinians who attend the general audience. Tourism has always been big in Argentina, but nowadays, coming to a general audience with the Pope is almost mandatory. There are also those who come and are my friends —I lived for 76 years in Argentina—, sometimes family, several nephews and nieces. But I have felt used, yes, there are people that have used me, my pictures, my words, as if I had said anything to them, and whenever someone asks me, I always respond: it's not my problem, I didn't say anything. But I am not getting into it. Everybody deals with his own conscience.”
A Catholic conclave
El País’ journalists recalled that the Pope created cardinals from five continents in his consistories and asked him how he would like the next conclave to be. “I want it to be Catholic,” Francis responded and in answer to the question “will you see it?” he replied: “I don't know. That is for God to decide. When I feel that I cannot go on, my great teacher Benedict taught me how to do it. And, if God should take me away with Him before then, I will see it from the afterlife. I hope it will not be from Hell... But I want it to be a Catholic conclave”.
